>Sucks/blows when directed man on man is homophobic.

I call bullshit on you. By conceeding that it is meaningfull regardless of the gender relationship of the speaker and target (if indeed the target is not, as is often the case, an asexual situation or object), I think you must also concede that the word has evolved beyond the original meaning, and therefore has become a generic insult on it's own which no longer literally implies fellatio. If it did, I fail to see how saying "Having to get up early for work (gives me head).", "Dodge Neons (engage in oral sex with me)", or "Your girlfriend (brings you to climax orally), you should dump the bitch." is meaningful. Why, if "sucks" can instead be said to have the (perhaps new) meaning of "is unplesant", must it be taken to mean "is a fag" when applied to a male? If that were true, why would, "You suck dick." be more offensive to a homophobe than, "You suck."? Etymology aside, the word evolved, and no longer holds that meaning so much as the emotive value once associated with it.

At worst, the meaning is as dated as the shock value, so that the use of "sucks" might best be construed as meaning, "Yankees (are loathsome, socially and spiritually reprehensibe, abhorable deviants worthy only of being held in a regard comparable to the largely outdated but long standing public perception of homosexuals)." That ain't gay bashing, and "Yankees suck." is a lot easier to say.

Stimulating discourse, all, either way the wind blows... or sucks.

I'd like to contribute the slightly less controversial notion that "suck" as a negative term is not one whose roots lie in homophobia, but is really just a lighter more socially-acceptable variation of "fuck". About as close to that particularly pernicious perjorative as you can get in prime-time television, "suck" gives you all the thrill of "fuck" (the homonymic shock, the satisfying ending plosive, the associations with salacious horizontal knick-knack snacking) without the full force of the beginning lip-flip and impact as a well-loved and strenuously utilized epithet. And you can't tell me that the word "fuck" hasn't been adopted to color speech with negative connotations. What suck gives you that fuck also does is the implication of the core animalistic crudeness of sex, the rutting, the insertions and lingual acrobatics, the sticky sweaty awkward delicious baseness of the act, and the ability to bring that into everyday conversation. Though can you imagine saying things like "This Fucks!" "What a fucky movie!!"? Kinda sits different, but that's only because "suck" as a "fuck" substitute has over time taken on a life of it's own. I think you'd find that "suck" or "sucks" as a verb predates other variations such as "sucky", "suckage" or "sucktacular". And "suck" as a verb is probably a relatively recent adaptation, I would argue within the last 25 years, when it has become much more common to create more abstracted verbs such as "to party" and "to philosophize" To paraphrase Decartes - "I suck, therefore I am".

Sucky movie fits with sucks/blows.
Sucker is slang for a lollipop. An unweaned domestic animal. Or a piston in a syringe. Or some indescriminently attracted to something "I'm a sucker for pizza, or a sucker for BJs". A spihon. Any number of North American Cheifly. A person often used as an intensive "he's a mean sucker".
I'm finding myself nodding my head as I read about Preacher's "bites" comments.
Is "sucks" gay-bashing? I'll stand by my statement but I do know that's taking to the extreme though. It could be a bit more greyer allowing latitude but that would conceed saying it sucks is OK unless it's directed at a homosexual? Sucks/blows when directed man on man is homophobic.
And we all know that if your'e under 15 years old. Everything sucks and everything's gay. I mean...where's the tolerance???

Also, if "suck" as a slang term is rooted in homophobia, how do you account for the adjective form, as in "that's a sucky movie", or the noun form "sucker" used in the context of one who is easily duped?

>Bites can be considered a cleaner version of "sucks" for those who know what sucks truly means.

I think of bites not as "cleaner" but as "more negative". While there are indisputably positive connotations to sucking, not so with the biter. I think of "this sucks" and "this blows" as equivalent, but "this bites" is worse in my book... especially if it bites "the big one". You never hear about sucking the big one.

I don't think it's gay bashing because I think the term (the etymology of which is sadly literal) only applies to willful attacks on gays, wether verbal or physical. While I agree that the term likely has homophobic roots, I don't think it's modern and pervasive usage really has that intent. It's not like saying, "You eat corn the long way."

Dear Preacher Matt,
Although I've respect your views and have been a fan of your books for a long time now I do wonder that although we agree that "this/that sucks" represents fellatio, you didn't address it's roots or its etymology. Especially in the Sport Arena where male fans yelling "you suck" at male atheletes does infer homosexual behaviour (not becoming of an athelete either). I do stand beside my original argument that "you suck" is gay-bashing because it does infer that men performing fellatio on other men is bad and negative. Why would it "suck" then? I find nothing wrong with the act and art of fellatio and encourage it at every level.
BTW: How cool is Jango skating?
I will retool my original sense for wind though. Sucking wind means that you're spent from an exerting activity and and breathing in heavily. Therefore sucking wind. Sucking eggs...not too sure but I think it's a lame replacement for the phallus..or perhaps testes which are "eggs" in their own allegorical sense.


Dear Rev Kiwi,
Bites? Donkey dick of course! Wheah did you grow up? In a Third World nation thousands of miles away from true civilization?
; ^ )
"Bite me" can refer to a numerous amount of body part (all which you can probably define, point out and show where their insertions are) but again it refers to genetalia. Bite my pinky does not have the same dramatic effect as bite my dinky. The assumed "where" in Bite Me must be below the belt for it to have any dramatic effect.
Also Bites can be considered a cleaner version of "sucks" for those who know what sucks truly means.

They basically showed that the name Hannah was very prominant in the mid-west (?) while the name Madison was prominant in the North-east (?) - or something like that (note: Darryl Hannah played Madison in "splash"). Then they noted that there was a variable frequency of popular names in certain states especially in Florida - when they overlayed the result of the voting poles from last election the similarities were scary - I would love to see the full report - I'll have to check channel 3's newsite and see if they have it posted - but I think it would have come from ABC.

PS - Dear Sully, what about the term "to bite", "bite me" and "that bites" - what exactly am I refering to here? signed Eagerly Aware, Sucksville, Trashtalkingland.

No... I haven't seen it. How did it line up... # of females was roughly equal to number of votes for Bush? For Gore? Was it electoral, or popular?

In other news....
I saw this thing on the news a couple of nights ago (actually I missed haf of it - that's why I'm bringing it up) that compared the frequency of female names throughout the United States with last years election polls - the images were almost identical. Has anyone else heard or seen this? And what does that mean?

Kiwi: Could that not also be a reference for the term indicating immaturity, or being a 'mamas boy'?

I don't remember ever hearing anyone say someone sucked because they were a mama's boy or immature. It almost always means that they are describing a person or situation as unpleasant.

I don't think it constitutes gay bashing, but I'll agree with it being a fellatio reference by default. Any time I've heard it used in a way not meant to imply that, it was specifically stated, as in, "This sucks ass", "He's sucking wind", or "That sucks eggs."

I don't know that it's necessarily homophobic though, so much as intended to be vulgar and a shocking. (okay, the shock wore off). It no more means cock sucking in the literal sense than "fuck you" means that you wish someone to have sex.
Calling someone a cocksucker is another matter.

Kiwi: What about the more innocent version of 'sucking' on the mothers teat? Could that not also be a reference for the term indicating immaturity, or being a 'mamas boy'? This term also fits the criteria - although more unlikely it is possible.
I might have to check Cecil's file on hits one - perhaps he has written something about it.

Sully!: Of course anyone can rationalize anything to fit anything. But circumlocution in this matter only leads to naivete on the part of the "doubter". There is a direct tangible and homophobic correlation in regards to "that sucks".
As a "Cuss" word, "that sucks" has no innocent meaning unless the arguer is wanting to be naive or justify their use of an objectionable phrase with a ruse. There could be a whole host of things to "suck" on; eggs, toes, wind, et al. to replace penis in that thought but they are not the assumed items to be sucked upon when mentioning "that/they sucks".
I guess the most fitting example of how "that/they suck" is clearly assumed to be about penis is when Boston denizens cry "Yankees Suck" at sporting events. The Yankees are a team of men. Telling them they "suck" infers homosexual activity (unbecoming of men and negative). Using that as an "anchor", see how easily it all comes together. Unless the arguer wants to be obtuse of course.
And it is awful that people in general especially children find that term acceptable. Of course someone will argue against assuming that "suck" does not refer to just penis...why admit homophobia? Bottom Line: saying something sucks is gay-bashing.

Kiwi: Doesn't that suck.

Sully!: As I respond to this always...suck what in particular. I have a Theory behind this so you can answer and I'll elaborate. If I haven't already told you...

Kiwi: Yes, well - can we just skip to the part where you are elaborating....

Sully!: The etymology of the term "sucks" usually can be attributed to something like a sportsteam. When the fans chant "You suck" to the other team, it comes from a homosexual bashing sense as in "you suck penis". The inferred in "you suck" always means penis is the object to be suckled upon in that reference.
With the ever degradation of language fashioning itself more and more to the vulgar in pop culture and with the loosening of language standards in everyday life (vis-a-vis television creating what is acceptable vernacular et al.)
You suck. That sucks. It sucks. (_insert_name_here_) sucks. All refer to the male genitalia.
Now, then comes the argument of assumption. And justifying usage because one argues that the usage does not infer penis. Using Occam's Razor and Common Sense, cut away the fat of the argument and again refer to how "you suck, that sucks" started. One cannot rightfully say that sucks means "sucking the life or soul" out of one when the start of it comes from a more sinister place.
So next time someone says "That sucks". Ask them "sucks what". Call them on their naivete if they argue.

Your sentance got four peppers. I've never seen that before!!!
Eudora Pro's Pepper system ranks 1, 2 and 3. "Idiot" gets you three. Three is the worst obviously.

What does it mean to get peppers on one's Eudora? Sounds unpleasant.

Does that email program rate the content of your messages or something? If so, it would be fun to write a short letter that would trip all it's warning flags. Maybe about a farmer who was trying to carry two faggots with his ass so he could build a new henhouse where chicks could get laid, but whose efforts were retarded by a pussy cat that kept trying to eat his cock, or something like that.

[10/22/2002 6:40:31 PM | Preacher Matt]
Seriously though... I agree with your ideas about language evolving/devolving, but I really don't think it's fair to cast nouns as part of that. At least, I don't think it's fair to use words for nouns that didn't exist, like "telephone", although new words for old ideas like "dweeb" are right in line with the notion

Or the evolution of nouns. Nouns change over time. Faggot meant bundle of sticks not too long ago. Queer meant "funny in an odd way". Nouns that didn't exist are one thing, nouns that have changed their popular or cultural meaning are different.
Diet long ago meant a legislative assembly in some countries. And its modern usage of "usual food" or "situation of losing weight" comes from the same Latin/Greek root diaita (Grk.)/dieta (Lat.) which meant "Daily routine, way of living".
So if you were to say to "I'm dieting" to a Holy Roman Emperor, he'd wouldn't guess you were trying to lose weight.
How about holocaust. Used to be a sacrifice (consumed by fire) but since the mid-20th century it has taken on various meanings of massive destruction, rioting, the effects of war, mass slaughter. So when Odysseus says to you "Hey, come on by, we're having a holocaust, it'll be really fun". Don't freak. But when goose stepping Nazis say it: run.
How about retard. To cause or proceed slowly or slackening of tempo will get someone 3 peppers on their Eudora.

[10/22/2002 12:53:14 PM | Preacher Matt]
Just wondering how you see dirty media tactics as reflecting a bias, if they are uncovering the truth. Isn't that just ambitious investigative journalism? Was there a real breach of ethics?

The bias lies in the Publishing house. Once a reporter tempers reporting with opinion they become a columnist.
Also there is the Editor of a paper too who filters. There are the wishes and interests of the advertisers. All these run against the grain of Free Press but nothing in the world is free...it all matters who pays.

Leah said:
I believe that more than any other country American news
broadcasters are "allowed" to be biased. It happens continuously in the
newspapers not only in the states but to an even greater extent in the UK
and even here - for some reason though this (at least in NZ) doesn't happen
to such a great degree in the average evening news coverage. In fact when
recently one of our news reporters played some dirty tactics on our PM to
uncover some information regarding GE in our most recent election, he was
SEVERELY reprimanded. In the States however not only is this attitude
welcomed but it is encouraged.

To me that doesn't seem right - especially in a "free thinking" country.

Just wondering how you see dirty media tactics as reflecting a bias, if they are uncovering the truth. Isn't that just ambitious investigative journalism? Was there a real breach of ethics?

Seriously though... I agree with your ideas about language evolving/devolving, but I really don't think it's fair to cast nouns as part of that. At least, I don't think it's fair to use words for nouns that didn't exist, like "telephone", although new words for old ideas like "dweeb" are right in line with the notion.

I'll give you something soft to bite on...

Get him something soft to bite on STAT!!!

So like, I'm reading what Sully said, you know, and I'm like, "oh, my God, that example is so totally bu-fu!", which is like wierd, you know, because his point was just SO very. I was like, "The stuff about all the irony, or whatever, you know, and the grammar stuff? That's totally bitchin', but he should totally bag the example, cuz using modern stuff like malls and charge cards is just super-super grodey... grodey to the max!" Fer sure.

Anyway, I’m, like, freaking out totally... only a total dweeb would even, like, be talking about all this 18th century stuff, you know? Barf me out, totally! I thought this was about totally tubular verbage, you know... not a bunch of creepy old dead guys. That's just so... you know? Gag me!

I think it lends hand to confusion if one either chooses to be confused by refusing to accept that language is quasi-organic or if they are culturally illiterate enough not to understand additions. Take an 18th century person, how confused would they be by this sentance: "So I like drove to the Mall but hit red lights the entire way and it took me probably like 20 minutes and they didn't even have the TV I wanted so I logged on an charged it onto my card at their website." Blase example but...
Language is not a static thing...it cannot be.

Is the evolution of language lending to confusion ironic?
Does it fit any of these?
Irony is an implied discrepancy between what is said and what is meant.
Three kinds of irony:

1.verbal irony is when an author says one thing and means something else.
2. dramatic irony is when an audience perceives something that a character in the literature does not know.
3. irony of situation is a discrepency between the expected result and actual results.

Would it be #3? Your expected result is that language becomes streamlined & better over time and it becomes worse? I think that's opinion, not irony. But that's the trouble with irony. Opinion matters in what is irony and what is not.

You guys should've come to my pathology lectures - Ken had a LOT to say about the degradation of the English language and how it's all the "damn Yankees" fault ("collectively, not individually")

PS - the evolving, adapting, and adjusting manner of language only leads to one thing --- confusion.

Huh - isn't that ironic?

>"Isn't it ironic that a short story about an unsinkable sealiner was published only years before the Titanic sank?".
Is the latter ironic? Yes and no. Prophetic, perhaps. Situational, definately. Ironic, sure...it's not hard to consider the latter irony.
Irony is not an all-encompassing term to slap on every queer event.

Yes and no? I'm failing to see the yes part. It doesn't even seem like situational irony to me. Using the Titanic movie as an example though, the "lucky" kid who won the tickets skipping happily through the streets... that's what I consider situational irony. I don't think synchronicity has fuckall to do with it.

It's obvious it's not coming ouit as fluidly or as elegantly as I hoped it would.

It's an idea...a way of percieving. Trying to see it with new eyes. OK. With situational irony there is the happenstance of something "funny" happening. Or percieving.
Isn't it ironic when...
In a non-Alanis way BTW. But when something appears to be ironic to the One, if it makes sense to Another could be as a synchronicity. Something interrelated and "funny". But I digress. I still feel irony is misused in situational (non-literal, literal meaning prose or poetry) ways all the time. Things are attributed to irony when they should be reclassified as something else and then the annoying notion that almost everything situational can be rationalized as ironic when it's not truly ironic.
But when I say "secular synchonicity", I mean that a synchonicity smacks of Divine fingerprints. That too could be up for debate but that real situation irony has the same feel to it. I think I'm saying it all wrong but it's the best I can do for now. Wish I knew classical Greek...that's the best language for philospohical and theological discussion for really classifying things.
In English there is one word for love...in Greek, storge, philia, eros, agape, etc. Each has a flavor to suit the compartmentalized item that shares a feeling but isn't the same.
I feel the same goes for situational irony. "Isn't it ironic that..." and then it's explained and there is a connection to the item and action adding a sense of "mystery", "queerness" or "oddness" to that "funny" feeling.
Is Twain's use of irony in "Jumping Frog of Calerveras County" by having the story translated into French and retranslated lieterally back into English the same irony as "Isn't it ironic that a short story about an unsinkable sealiner was published only years before the Titanic sank?".
Is the latter ironic? Yes and no. Prophetic, perhaps. Situational, definately. Ironic, sure...it's not hard to consider the latter irony.
Irony is not an all-encompassing term to slap on every queer event.

Uhh... I reread your post Sully, but I can't for the life of me figure out what your theory is.

I enjoyed that article. Purdy's observance of Love Story was excellent. Thank you.

I'll bite.

Yes, yes... the Alannis-listening masses may well never understand what the word means, but their use of it as a device is unquestionably pervasive. You don't have to go too far these days to find an example of irony, especially in it's meaner form: sarcasm. Given that the enlightend folks on Ocho either already know what it is or can damn well look it up, what do you think of the notion, laid out here, that irony is in fact a sort of modern literary cancer, eating away at our capacity for earnest expression and replacing it with cynicism and reflexive mockery?

In much the same way that violence on television desensitizes us and shapes our thoughts, does our custom of ironic communication likewise erode our capacity to be honest with ourselves? I'm thinking not, but it's an interesting position.

THE GOOD WORD!

I got a theory. And a new definition. For years I've been struggling with the dilution of our language. It can't be helped...language is not static. It is as an organism...evolving, adapting, adjusting.
My battles over irony have been quite fufilling and entertaining but I still refuse to see irony when it is actually situational but I respect others P.O.V.'s because I hope they respect mine.
Althought I stand firm by Websters 1.1 definition in regards to true irony. Just because a situation can be funny, odd or otherwise interrelated with something else does not necessarily make it ironic. But I can see how irony recently includes a feeling of secular synchronicity. I say this because irony is used sometimes when other words clearly define the situation and mood better. When an instance seems ironic, it has a peculiarity about it that transcends the mundane but yet doesn't really invoke anything Divine at the same time.
Any takers?

>What is the ugliest part of your body?

My toe... definately my right big toe. I had the nail surgically removed (with pliers) and it just... wasn't quite right after that.

>How do you make love stay?

Epoxy.

>Who is best fit to represent the human race to an alien society?

Pretty much anyone other than Michael Jackson.

>Why does gas cost less per gallon than water?

Water's also free... they charge that much for it because people are fuckin' retards and will pay for bottled tap water instead of getting it from the tap.

>Who thought we'd WANT hot in-flight meals? What do you like to eat on an airplane?

Someone who's spent more than 10 hours on a plane, no doubt. Pussy... same as everywhere else.

>What one sure-fire trick to pick up women do YOU KNOW PERSONALLY that you have NEVER seen described in Maxim Magazine? (Feel free to include more than one and BE SPECIFIC!!)

Yeah... like there's anything sure-fire about women.

>What bit of your culture are you most excited to show to your kids? If not your kids, then somebody's kids? Whose kids?

I'm looking forward to introducing them to the wide world of Yankee ingenuity. If not my kids, than my friends' kids.

>I didn't know you had kids?...

Yeah, well there's probably a lot you don't know. :)

Exactly!

Myrmidion!

That's a link underneath, Myrmidons was Kiwi's word of the day. She used it correctly. The link can answer all questions.

ACHILLES

Okay... I'm here. We can start now!

How 'bout this one:

There once was a sailor named Waylon
who stood on the deck with a rail on
"It's a mast!" He declared as his member he bared,
"..and it's perfect for hanging a sail on!"

What's a myrmidon?

Myrmidons of Jubal? Not bad...can I change to White Trash Achillues?

I just made this up:

Myrmidons of Jubal
Nero & Pedro
Channel Ocho Productions 2002

Oh the Myrmidons played Frisbee
On the shores of Troy
Achilles sat there pouting
And crying like a boy

Pat got up and left the room
And got a cup of wine
Old Phoenix he was snoring
in the corner by the fire.

The line was broke, a sign went up
It seemed Old Heck broke out
And the Armour of Achiiles
Pat put on and rode on mount

Pat came back, the suit did not
Old Heck now wore and strode
Achilles got a new suit from his mom
And gods of old.

What happened to the flower girl
Where did you see her go
Miss Brysies we truly miss
Her daddy sits in snow
Oh flower girl how can this be
This tale of grief and woe
The blind poets and muses sing
Where did you see her go

Where did you see her go
Where did you see her go
Where did you see her go
Where did you see her go

cha cha boom!

Hello Kiwi! Don't bee two confus'ed.
This is the station for meditation...
Channel Ocho...me gusta mucho
It's better to tune in than to fade away...
The Nero & Pedro purveyors, the holders of the sacred fleece codpiece, aficiandos of organized chaos...
The Doctor is in & see the Rev about sin.
Check it at the door...you don't need it anymore.
Kick off yer shoes and help us sing the blues.
The World's an ugly place to ugly people only!
So much to talk about...so much going on.
Pluck an idea from the sky and maybe someone like I will reply.

I just made this up:
There once was a man in a Trailer
Who was having problems with his member
He thought he would flip
When it started to drip
He said never ever sleep with a sailor...

Austin...are you usuing protection? BWAH!

I'm confused...

What is the ugliest part of your body?

My mind...I thought we covered that.

How do you make love stay?

Chicken wire & 2 X 4s.

Who is best fit to represent the human race to an alien society?

Traci Lords or Britney Spears

Why does gas cost less per gallon than water?

Because you can't drink gas in the desert?

Who thought we'd WANT hot in-flight meals? What do you like to eat on an airplane?

Whatever the stewardess is wearing...rorw.

What one sure-fire trick to pick up women do YOU KNOW PERSONALLY that you have NEVER seen described in Maxim Magazine? (Feel free to include more than one and BE SPECIFIC!!)

Treat them like crap. They'll come back for more.
Ignore them. They'll think you got mystique.
Go Big early. Avoid the "last-call" rush to the fat chicks.
Tie cherry stems with your tongue and make sure they know it was you that did it. That will get their attention.

What bit of your culture are you most excited to show to your kids? If not your kids, then somebody's kids? Whose kids?

Anything but pop culture. They can be culturally illiterate about TV, Radio, Media for all I care. It made me into a short attention spanned quasi-retard. I'd show them every culture except for American culture...they'll get enough of that on their own. But what would American Culture be beyond MultiMedia and Maya?...

;)

Have you seen the lil fishies...swimming in my stool. If I didn't eat the fishie I would be a fool...never having pools...to swim around in! Fishies swim twice! Once as fish...then they are converted into yummies. Then they are born again as Brown Dolphins and swim once more into the sea.
The Brown Dolphinm swims again!
The Brown Dolphin knows no pain!
Unless it hits a vein in vain...
And in the Gulf Stream it ends up in Spain.

WADDUP?

I love little fishies!! I love little fishies!!


They should make sushi ice cream!!


What is the ugliest part of your body?


How do you make love stay?



Who is best fit to represent the human race to an alien society?



Why does gas cost less per gallon than water?



Who thought we'd WANT hot in-flight meals? What do you like to eat on an airplane?


What one sure-fire trick to pick up women do YOU KNOW PERSONALLY that you have NEVER seen described in Maxim Magazine? (Feel free to include more than one and BE SPECIFIC!!)


What bit of your culture are you most excited to show to your kids? If not your kids, then somebody's kids? Whose kids?


I didn't know you had kids?...


A little get-to-know ya quizzie poo excuse to talk about yerself!! Pass it on to all of your friends or your VAGINA WILL FALL OFF. I swear to god, it's gross. Just pass it on...

xoxo

[10/4/2002 6:57:12 AM | Rev Sully!]
Welcome to Channel Ocho. Home of Nero & Pedro. Oh...no one here...yet!

Welcome to Channel Ocho. Home of Nero & Pedro. Oh...no one here...yet!